Interview: “The Dark Side of Disney” Creators Philip B. Swift and Leonard Kinsey

The Dark Side of Disney documentaryOriginally released in 2011, Leonard Kinsey’s book, “The Dark Side of Disney,” provided a unique alternative to the typical Walt Disney World guidebook. Instead of giving you attraction summaries or telling you to visit Toy Story: Midway Mania early in the day, Kinsey talks everything from getting tickets through timeshare presentations to gaining access to the utilidoors under the Magic Kingdom. In short, “The Dark Side of Disney” is a book for those who have seen it all, but want to know more.

Kinsey’s guidebook has spawned a Kickstarter Project from filmmaker Philip B. Swift to create a documentary based on “The Dark Side of Disney.” Swift has already funded one successful documentary through Kickstarter; 2010’s “The Bubble,” which focused on the Disney-created town of Celebration, Florida.

I had the opportunity to interview both Swift and Kinsey about “The Dark Side of Disney.”

C101: Tell us a little bit about your background as it relates to Walt Disney World.

Leonard Kinsey:  I was born and raised near Tampa, FL, and my family used to go to Disney a lot. Sometimes we’d go 2-3 times a month. So, I really got to know the parks well, and kind of thought of them as a second home. Especially EPCOT Center. Even as a teenager, I continued to visit the parks often, but at that point it was mostly with my friends and girlfriends, which, of course, was an entirely different experience than going with my family.

The Dark Side of Disney documentary

Philip Swift: I grew up in Akron, OH and we went to Walt Disney World every year. My mom was the quintessential Disney fanatic. She still lives in Ohio and has a season pass to WDW that she uses at least 2 or 3 times a year, if not more. I, of course, loved going as a kid, and having a mom who was so into Disney created this sort of expert level experience for us. She knew where to be at what time and how to get there in order to optimize our time and fun at the park.

She would know that if we saw this parade at this time then we could rush over to that ride to beat the lines and then make it back over to EPCOT from the Magic Kingdom in time to see Illuminations and the Main Street Electrical Parade all in one night. I might be exaggerating a little there, but she was pretty crazy and efficient about it.

It’s pretty impressive. She even pulls the classic trick of driving up to the Contemporary and telling the guard that we’re there for breakfast, whether we are or not, so that we can park there and then walk over to MK. Not as good as some of Leonard Kinsey’s tips, but still pretty good.

Philip Swift

The Dark Side of Disney documentary

C101: What gave you the idea to create a documentary based on Leonard Kinsey’s book, “The Dark Side of Disney?”

PS: I had read “The Dark Side of Disney” while doing research for my first feature length documentary, The Bubble which is about that Disney-built town of Celebration, FL.  I also read Cast Member Confidential by Chris Mitchell and The Celebration Chronicles by Andrew Ross, both really good, but I kept going back to DSoD.  It reminded so much of growing up in Akron, OH, which is this dying industrial town built on the back of Goodyear and Firestone, and when I was a teenager my friends and I would break into abandoned buildings just to see what was inside. So when I read about Leonard’s adventures at WDW as an attempt to rekindle a long lost passion for a place he loved, I really related.

I approached Leonard with the idea of adapting DSoD into a documentary that would look at the book as a list of challenges and he was into it. The scope of the project expanded to include talking with other “Darksiders” to hear their experiences first hand and then I had the thought to talk more with my mom for the film. While she’s not a “Darksider”, she definitely has an interesting perspective on how to navigate a trip to WDW as a single woman who’s almost in her 60s (she’ll kill me for saying that…), think of her as more of the light end of the dark spectrum, if you will. It’s been really interesting talking to her about the genesis of her Disney fascination, plotting it out in a timeline format was helpful for us to see how she got to her current level of obsession.

One point on that timeline I was particularly moved by was in 2011. She was diagnosed with ovarian cancer and went through some very extreme surgery, chemotherapy, radiation, the whole thing. As soon as she was done with all the procedures she hopped on a plane and made the pilgrimage back to her holy land, Walt Disney World. While on that trip she obviously wasn’t able to make those mad dashes to see everything like she had when I was a kid, and had to take occasional breaks throughout the Magic Kingdom. Cast members and tourists would come up to her, put a hand on her shoulder and simply say things like, “It’s gonna be okay”, or “we’re happy you’re here”. The fact that these people were so receptive to the struggle that she had gone through, and so willing to take a moment out of their workday or vacation to recognize her condition, just melts my heart.  It’s stories like that which will bring a bit of light to the darkness of the documentary and set it apart from just being a movie where we test the boundaries at the park.

C101: How do you feel knowing that someone is using your book, “The Dark Side of Disney,” to create a documentary about the “alternative” things you can do at Walt Disney World?

LK: It’s exciting, and I’m flattered! I’m glad that it’s being done by someone who is professional, ethical, talented, and a huge Disney fan. It could have been done by some jackasses who didn’t consult me and went out and broke stuff and ruined people’s vacations, which is totally opposite of what the book advocates!

C101: Do you have a favorite part of the book that you hope makes it on screen?

PS: My favorite part [of the book] is the one that caught me most by surprise, which it shouldn’t have now that I know Leonard. When I first read the book I had it in my head that it was going to have this negative point of view about the park, but it doesn’t at all. Leonard’s whole point is that he actually really loves Disney and WDW, truly one of the biggest fans I’ve ever met, but he was just tired of being treated like a kid when he was there. He respects the families that have saved up, possibly for years, just to be there and he would never do anything to endanger or ruin that. He simply loves the park and wants to experience it from a more adult perspective Sneaking into the utilidoors or smoking weed from a vape pen will get you banned, if you get caught, but it won’t actually hurt anyone.

So, to answer your question simply, Leonard’s respect for others and the park is my favorite part of DSoD, and I hope to convey that sentiment in the film

LK: I think it’d be funny to see the filmmakers get super high and go on some of the crazier rides in the parks. Seeing them try to hook up with Cast Members would be pretty entertaining, too.

The Dark Side of Disney documentary

Photo via shaneperez.blogspot.com

C101: Tell us about the concept of “Darksiders.” How did you link up with other people who shared this view of Disney?

LK: I knew about Chris Mitchell, author of “Cast Member Confidential”, Shane Perez, who swam to Discovery Island, and Hoot and Chief, who explored Horizons. I put all four of them in my book! Other than those guys, no, I didn’t really know if there was anyone out there like me. I had no idea if the book would sell a single copy. But since the book’s release, it seems like a whole subculture has sprung up around it, and I hear from people daily who are really into the “dark side” stuff. I’ve also met some wonderful people who will likely be lifelong friends, and that’s definitely been the best thing to come out of the book.

PS: I’ve been talking with some people that Leonard has put me in touch with or people that I’ve connected with through Facebook or Twitter. I can’t talk too much about what’s happening now, but it’s going to be good and I’m very thankful for their support and Leonard’s willingness to help out. These people are urban explorers, ex-cast members, park enthusiasts, and Disneyphiles who will all bring unique perspectives to the film.

C101:  Recently, the film “Escape from Tomorrow” utilized some unique filming techniques to film inside the gates of Walt Disney World and Disneyland without getting caught. Do you think the documentary crew will have any issues filming inside Walt Disney World?

LK: Definitely. Cast Members are much more aware now of cameras in backstage areas than they were even a few years ago, due in large part to my videos, and to “Escape from Tomorrow”. Security is also a lot tighter than it was when I did most of my Utilidor exploring, which was pre-9/11. I’m not sure how exactly Philip and his crew are going to shoot their backstage explorations, but if a Cast Member sees an obvious camera backstage, they will report it to Security.

PS: I transitioned from narrative filmmaking to documentary in 2010 because I was tired of all the roadblocks and hassles I would run into trying to get a narrative product off the ground. Say what you will about Escape from Tomorrow, but you have to give them credit for taking on the challenge and getting that movie made. The difference with making a documentary is that we don’t have to deal with scripts, actors, lighting, retakes, blocking, none of it. With a documentary we just have to capture the action as it happens and craft the story in editing. I’m not going to say it’s easier, it’s still a hell of a challenge, but a different kind of challenge then the makers of that film had to deal with and it’s a challenge I’m really excited to take on.

The Bubble

C101: You have already had a successful Kickstarter Campaign with “The Bubble.” What do you think is most important in creating a Kickstarter Campaign that will be successfully funded?

PS: Kickstarters are hard work, that’s the first thing people need to know. It becomes a full time job that requires an amount of discipline in order to keep from annoying anyone that could be a potential backer, and if you think optimistically about it, everyone is a potential backer. Some things I was guilty of doing with my campaign for The Bubble that I’m trying not to do with the new one were spamming every person I knew on Facebook. I quickly learned that if you do that 100 times, Facebook will block you from posting links to walls for 24 hours, but that didn’t stop me. I just waited a day and then moved on to the next 100, got blocked, waited 24 hours, etc.

With this campaign I’ve tried to take a step back and let people want to share instead of shoving it down their throats. I’ve also planned some updates that will roll out each week to showcase the different aspects of the film. It seems that the initial reaction to the campaign has been, like I said before, that people think I’m just going to go and [mess] around in the park and film it on my phone or some amateur act like that. The goal is to make a dynamic film that has some range to it, so over the month I’m hoping to showcase some of the more serious and emotional aspects of the film that will widen its scope beyond just a WDW based version of Jackass.

C101: Leonard, Do you see any similarities in you pitching your book to publishers and the pitching of a Kickstarter project to potential backers?

LK: It’s a lot easier to pitch to Kickstarter backers! Seriously, I had no luck with traditional publishers. They were either scared of the book, didn’t think there was a market for it, or had some insane release schedule that would have delayed it for a year or more. Much like self-publishing, Kickstarter lets you connect directly with your fans, which is awesome.

The Dark Side of Disney documentary

photo via insidethemagic.com

C101: Philip, Are you prepared for the consequences should anything you do for this film get you banned from Walt Disney World?

PS: If I or any of my crew do get banned, it’s not the end of the road, just a different path to travel down. We get to see what happens and how we rectify it. If you get banned in WDW, it doesn’t mean you’re banned at Disneyland…and if you get banned at both, what about Disneyland Paris?  Tokyo Disneyland?  Shanghai?  I’m interested to investigate this, but I hope I won’t have to. It would break my mom’s heart.

C101: Leonard, You’ve had friends get banned for life from Walt Disney World. Do you see the same thing happening with this project?

LK: It’s a very real possibility. My suspicion is that the film will end up being a cautionary tale that will deter others from crossing the line.

C101: You mentioned in the Kickstarter video that you could not give them your blessing. Why?

LK: Because there is a very real chance that his activities will get him banned for life, and I wouldn’t wish that on my worst enemy.

The Dark Side of Disney documentary

photo via darksideofdisney.com

C101:  What are you most looking forward to during the filming process?

PS: Someone once told me, “If you’re going to make a documentary, make it about something you’re interested in”. The reason I made The Bubble is because I had questions about Celebration that no one could answer, so why not talk to people, find those answers and make a movie under the assumption that other people want to hear them?  Some people would write a book, or a song, or make a comic, I just happen to prefer the medium of filmmaking. When I tell people about DSoD, people often say, “Really?  Why would people do stuff like that?”, and that’s what I look forward to finding out. Like I said already, why, not how. Even if sometimes the best way to answer one is with the act of the other.

C101: What are you most looking forward to seeing come to life on screen?

LK: It’d be fun to see them try to escape a “free ticket” Timeshare presentation. Those things are brutal! I’m also looking forward to seeing their reactions as they discover new things at Walt Disney World. That thrill of discovery can make adults feel like kids again, because back then everything in the world was new and exciting.

C101: What do you see as the biggest obstacle with this project?

LK: Disney Legal! Seriously, though, I think right now the biggest obstacle is money. They’re going to need a fair amount to get this going. Disney isn’t cheap! So if people really want to see this movie, they should definitely donate to the Kickstarter.

PS: Right now it’s just about funding. It’s the hardest thing for any artist, not just filmmakers. You have something you want to do, almost something you have to do, you just have to figure out how you can do it. It’s a weird counterpart to the last question. I know why I want to do it, but how do I get the funding to do it?  Everything else will be easy and exciting, but first we gotta make that money to do it.

C101: What is the end goal for the film? Are you targeting a specific release date?

PS: I have a history of rushing through projects. When I was in school, I was always that jerk that would rush through a test just to be the first one done. I always liked slamming down my pencil and then looking around the class to see if I was the first one done, and then I would get such a weird sense of satisfaction when I was. The downside of that?  I never did that well on those tests!  With DSoD I intend to take my time, for maybe the first time ever, and make the best possible film that I can. Leonard’s been kind enough to let me adapt his book and the worst thing I could do would be to piss out a half-baked product that undermines the quality he’s put into the source material. On the Kickstarter page, I’ve been saying an expected release date of September 2015, but that’s a best-case scenario. It might take a lot longer than that, but when it does come out it will be the best it can be.

C101: What else would you like our readers to know about “The Dark Side of Disney?”

PS: I would like people to know that if they back this project, they will not run the risk of getting banned. Disney isn’t going to come know on your door and say, “did you back that movie?” and then drag you off to Disney jail. I promise. The Dark Side of Disney is a documentary film that investigates the tips and tricks from Leonard Kinsey’s best-selling “Anarchist Cookbook of Disney Travel Guides” that shows you how to have fun at Walt Disney World from an adult perspective. The three main parts of the film are interviews with “Darksiders” examining why they push the boundaries at the happiest place on Earth, the documentation inside the park as we investigate the tips and tricks as a series of challenges, and an introspective analysis of obsessive Disney fanaticism from the perspective of the filmmakers mother, a lifelong Disney fanatic.

LK: I’d want them to know that it’s all in good fun, and not to be taken too seriously. People get really bent out of shape about it! But mostly I’d want them to know that I love Disney, and I always will. Hopefully that comes through in the book. Oh, and I’d also like people to know that I’ve written two other Disney-related books: “Our Kingdom of Dust”, and the brand new “Habst and the Disney Saboteurs”! If they dig DSoD, I really think they’ll dig those, too.

Learn More About The Dark Side of Disney

For more information on The Dark Side of Disney or to back the Kickstarter Project, please click here. To purchase Leonard Kinsey’s books, you can visit his store at http://bambooforest.storenvy.com/, or buy them from Amazon.

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